Massimo Teodorani, Ph.D.
Astrophysicist, Naples Observatory, Bologna, Italy:
saw two types of targets. Most of the ones are plasma-like lights.
So, nothing with structure, but just like balls of lights with
no geometry or so. This is 95% of the things we saw with our own
THESE PLASMA BALLS COULD LAST UP TO TWO HOURS?
They could last up to two hours according to reports by Dr. Erling
Strand who is the professor directing the project in Norway.
THAT WOULD EXCLUDE BALL LIGHTNING?
IS A VERY SHORT PHENOMENON?
AHEAD AND DESCRIBE WHAT YOU'VE SEEN AND WHAT THE CHARACTERISTICS
ARE THAT MAKES THIS SO AMAZING TO YOU SCIENTISTS AND WHY YOU ARE
well, what is amazing is the fact that the phenomenon is very
energetic. And so, with our measurement we want to understand
what is the physical mechanism with which this energy is emitted.
This is the scope of our investigation. What we have seen is that
the phenomena is very complex. It is not simple light balls, but
when we process the data we see that many small light balls vibrate
around a common barycenter. So it is something like a center force
that is ejecting balls or the mini-balls are going around the
center body. It is quite complicated. And we also saw during the
processing phase that these plasmas are able to assume several
shapes. Sometimes, also geometric.
Sometimes also geometric. We don't know yet the reason about that
yet, but we saw something that was like a rectangle. It suddenly
changes from an amorphous plasma to a rectangle. It happened transiently
and we saw it and it is in my paper, EMBLA 2001: The Optical Mission.
YOU WERE WATCHING SOMETHING ROUND LIKE A SPHERE OF PLASMA AND
IT SUDDENLY TRANSFORMED INTO A RECTANGLE?
At first we thought it was a sort of instrumental effect due to
the video camera. But after we compared the photo of this same
phenomenon with the video of the same phenomenon, we saw that
they were the same thing. That is a plasma in spite of that geometrical
shape because we can do certain analyses by studying the distribution
of light. And also by taking the spectra. We see that one is a
plasma. So, it is strange. A plasma phenomenon that we can describe,
but not yet tell what is the main reason that is causing it.
IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT NONE OF YOU OR ANY OTHER ASTROPHYSICISTS
HAVE EVER DOCUMENTED THIS KIND OF PLASMA INTERACTION AND TRANSFORMATION
(we haven't). To me it doesn't result that other astrophysicists
have found this. I know that some astrophysicists have seen the
light phenomenon as amorphous light balls, but it is the first
time that we saw that this year.
YOU HAVE CONCLUDED IN YOUR SCIENTIFIC PAPER THAT THESE ARE THERMAL
PLASMAS BECAUSE WHY?
if I take spectrum and I plot the spectrum in a flux wavelength,
that spectrum resembles typical Max Plank curve which is typical
of a cocktail of ions and electrons. That speaks very clearly.
And we can also measure the temperature and the temperature was
in that case a little bit higher than the solar temperature; 6,500
WOULD THIS BE CONSIDERED A LOW ENERGY PLASMA OR A HIGH ENERGY
is a quite high energy plasma. If you have some triggering cause
that is creating the plasma, we expect that the plasma expands.
This is a cooling mechanism. We expect that it expands and in
that case a temperature must drop. But we saw that those lights
were changing shapes suddenly from very big to very small and
the phenomenon was there standing still. But the temperature was
just constant because we measured the temperature in both phases.
So, there must be some kind of self-heating mechanism that keeps
the temperature constant. This is highly anomalous.
IS HIGHLY ANOMALOUS BECAUSE YOU ARE DEFINING A PLASMA THAT IS
SELF-SUSTAINING TEMPERATURE IN A WAY THAT YOU HAVE NEVER IDENTIFIED
Absolutely yes. I don't know how it is possible that Nature is
spontaneously is able to do that. Anyway, we deduce that the plasma
is trapped inside a sort of magnetic cage and the magnetic cage
closes around the plasma and keeps it fixed in some way, prevents
it from expanding. But where does it come from? We don't know.
In a way we have a measured correlation between magnetic perturbation
and the apparition of lights. This is another discovery. Sometimes
the lights are not lights, but invisible. In fact, Prof. Erling
Strand, my friend and colleague from Norway, in 1994 got about
34 radio tracks of phenomenon that sometimes were visible, but
sometimes were not visible. So, the radar was giving exactly the
position and velocity, but it was not visible. So, we have a big
suspicion that this kind of phenomenon can shift into low energy
and so become invisible.
IT SHIFTS TO A LOWER FREQUENCY THAT THE RETINA OF THE HUMAN EYE
CANNOT SEE . . .
YET ON RADAR, IT IS STILL THERE . . .
AND THAT IS SO CONSISTENT WITH
AT LEAST TWELVE YEARS OF EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS IN ENGLAND, MYSELF
INCLUDED, IN WHICH THROUGH AN INFRARED SCOPE I HAVE BEEN ABLE
TO SEE WHAT LOOKED LIKE AN OVAL OF LIGHT CHANGE INTO A SQUARE
OF LIGHT THAT WAS PULSING. I SAW THIS ALONG WITH OTHER PEOPLE
AND WE COULD ONLY SEE THIS IN THE INFRARED SCOPE. WE COULD NOT
SEE IT WITH OUR EYES.
is very interesting. We also used the infrared detector, but we
havenŐt pointed it at the lights themselves. But how were you
able to point if you were not able to see?
DISCOVERED IT TOTALLY BY A FLUKE. I HAD THIS INSTRUMENT AND SOMEBODY
YELLED THAT THEY THOUGHT THEY SAW A FLASH OF RED WHICH WE ALL
SEEMED TO SEE AT THE SAME TIME. THAT WAS THE ONLY THING. AND JUST
AS YOU CAN LIFT UP SOMETHING IN A DIRECTION, I LIFTED THE SCOPE
AND SAW THIS OVAL THAT HAD A PULSING TO IT VERY BRIGHT IN THE
INFRARED SCOPE. WE PASSED IT AROUND AND NO ONE COULD SEE ANYTHING
IN THE DARK WITH OUR EYES, BUT THROUGH THE INFRARED, HERE WAS
THIS PULSING OVAL THAT SHOCKED ALL OF US WHEN IT TRANSFORMED IMMEDIATELY
INTO THIS SQUARE OF PULSING LIGHT SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED.
Absolutely. Very interesting. Next year we are also going to use
a more sophisticated infrared detector. This is very interesting
because we are going to use sensors to track the phenomenon with
infrared, optical, radar and so on, so we can track them everywhere.
But we need some money for that yet.
IT IS SUCH IMPORTANT WORK. I HAVE BECOME CONVINCED AS AN INVESTIGATIVE
REPORTER THAT A LOT IS HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF THE RANGE OF THE HUMAN
for sure. And I didn't tell you the other thing besides those
plasmas which were 95% of the events. But we saw also in two or
three cases compact (solid) objects. One appeared suddenly when
we were taking a photograph of each other on top of a mountain.
It was a remembering photo and when the flash was activated, the
object appeared. But it was not a plasma object because I analyzed
it. It was just a polished surface, very clear. It is present
in my paper and last year, we had one very small sphere. I could
measure it. It was about 40 centimeters, sort of a probe. It arrived
over our head. There were about three (of us who saw it) at night.
It stopped 90 meters far from us near the trees and there it floated
standing still for a long time, about 15 minutes. I took a photograph
of that and by analyzing the frame, I could see that it was a
solid. It was like alabaster (glowing) and I was able to follow
it with my binoculars very well.
WHEN YOU ARE DESCRIBING THE SURFACE, YOU SAW ONE THAT HAD A SMOOTH,
SHINY SURFACE. THIS ONE WAS, DID YOU SAY, LIKE ALABASTER GLOWING
FROM THE INSIDE OUT?
Yes. In that case, it was a sort of low luminosity, like a 100
watt bulb. Not more. So we don't know why in this valley there
most are plasmas. In other cases, there are other things. So there
is an overlap of the two phenomenon and we don't know if this
overlap is by something different or by behavior of the same phenomenon.
We don't know yet. Last year we also saw a triangle in the sky.
A TRIANGLE? Yes, you can get information on this by reading my
EMBLA 2000 report indicated in the bibliographic reference of
the last EMBLA 2001 study. Last year we saw the triangle, but
we couldn't document it because that day we didn't have a videocamera
with us. It was impossible to follow it with a normal reflex camera.
But it was just a triangle with three lights on the vertices.
The lights were fixed, not blinking, and it was coming from north
towards us and it did stop exactly over us. There were five of
us and when it was over us it started to make a rotation around
its axis while it was standing still. And after some seconds,
about 15 seconds, the lights faded very gradually and the triangle
disappeared over our heads. This is a story, but unfortunately
we couldn't document or take measurements. But it happened.
AND THIS IS THIS PAST SUMMER OF
2001 AND THOSE TRIANGLES WITH THE LIGHTS AT THE THREE VERTICES
HAVE BEEN REPORTED IN BELGIUM AND ENGLAND.
BIG WOULD YOU ESTIMATE AS A SCIENTIST LOOKING UP? COULD YOU ESTIMATE
ANYTHING ABOUT THE SIZE?
It was practically impossible to understand. It was very big and
I can only say that the size was about 10 times the moon. Probably
more. I could see with my binocular that there was a dark surface
very well. But differently from the Belgium cases. There was no
blinking center light. There were only three lights fixed and
then afterward fading gradually and disappearing. I tell you that
my friend is director of a radio astronomical station. He is a
radio astronomer and I am an astrophysicist. There were two professors
there who are engineers and another professor. And it was in fact
YOU HAVE FIVE SCIENTISTS WHO ARE ALL WORKING IN UNIVERSITIES OUT
TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE PLASMA SPHERES IN THE HESSDALEN
VALLEY ARE AND THIS OBJECT OF TRIANGLE LIGHTS, YOU ALL SEE IT,
AND IT STOPS RIGHT OVER YOU AS IF AWARE THAT YOU ARE THERE?
yes, yes, it is exactly so. Of course, I have to tell what happens.
I am a scientist and my duty is not to select what I don't like
or what is not convenient for me. We have to find out what it
is. But we cannot document with data this. We were just witnesses
because no one of us had a video camera. But we were 5 and we
were all scientists. And one of themI cannot tell you the
namefelt a little bit like a sort of rocking motion.
and it is very well known that very low frequency can interact
with the human brain.
YOU ALREADY HAVE DOCUMENTED THAT SOME OF THE PHENOMENON ASSOCIATED
WITH THE PLASMA LIGHTS ARE LONG FREQUENCY RADIOWAVES?
but sometimes we see them and we also have cases we see only long
radio waves without seeing anything. And of course, we could exclude
any kind of manmade radio waves, but what remained was one sort
of Doppler waves if we interpret it in the astrophysical way,
it is like a fast rotating ball which is accelerating high energy
particles. The velocity was 100,000 kilometers per second and
of course, this can be due only to particles which are channeled
along the magnetic field. This is the only interpretation that
we can do. In the case of lights that don't appear in the photo,
the temperature must be very low, something like 100 Kelvin or
HOW HIGH DOES IT HAVE TO GO TO BREAK INTO THE FREQUENCY THAT THE
EYE CAN SEE?
think it should reach something like 1,000 Kelvin probably, maybe
2000, the eye should be able to see. But I haven't calculated
WOULD MEAN THAT YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DOCUMENT WHAT SEEMS LIKE
A TEMPERATURE RANGE THAT WOULD GO FROM 100 KELVIN TO 1000 KELVIN
OUT OF THE INVISIBLE RANGE TO THE VISIBLE RANGE . . .
YET YOUR INSTRUMENTS KEEP SHOWING THERE IS NO TEMPERATURE CHANGE
FROM THESE LIGHTS.
this is when the phenomenon is inside, the temperature remains
constant. This I can document. We didn't use very much infrared
detector, but in the case of the lights when they were on, they
were just lighting, the temperature was established at a constant
level. This is what I can say in spite of the fact that the phenomenon
was changing dimension (size), but the temperature was always
constant. We don't know why. We don't know the physics that is
behind all this.
THIS WOULD BE A HUGE PHYSICAL ANOMALY BECAUSE IN THE PHYSICS WORLD
THAT WE UNDERSTAND SO FAR, FREQUENCY OF TEMPERATURE AND VIBRATION
YOU WOULD THINK WOULD BECOME LOWER IF IT DISAPPEARED.
when it disappeared, the frequency becomes lower.
BUT YOU ARE SAYING THAT THE TEMPERATURE
DOES NOT BECOME LOWER EVEN WHEN THESE PLASMA SPHERES DISAPPEAR?
No, the temperature was not changing at all when the plasma was
DID THE TEMPERATURE GO DOWN WHEN THE PLASMA SPHERE DISAPPEARED
TO YOUR EYE, BUT WAS STILL THERE ON RADAR?
is a good question. My problem is that the spectrum we took when
the plasma was disappearing was too weak. So, it was impossible
to process it with good signal to noise ratio. So we cannot tell
IT MIGHT HAVE GONE FROM 1000 DEGREES KELVIN IN THE VISIBLE RANGE
SUDDENLY DOWN TO 100 DEGREES KELVIN IN THE INVISIBLE RANGE, BUT
SO FAR YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET CONTINUAL LINEAR DATA?
we have not. But I can tell you anyway that the phenomenon is
not turning on gradually, but it turns on in a matter of 1 second.
Just like when you turn on or turn off the light. It goes away
immediately. So, it's very difficult to see the shift in temperature
unless we use a high speed photometer.
WHAT WOULD BE THE SOURCE BEHIND THESE PLASMA SPHERES THAT HAVE
THE ABILITY TO TRANSFORM IN SHAPE AND STILL DON'T LOSE THEIR TEMPERATURE?
am not able to tell this, but I can only deduce indirectly that
the only way to keep a plasma self-consistent, self-contained,
the only way to do that is we need a center force. We don't know
yet the nature of that center force, but as an astrophysicist
I can predict the existence of some kind of mini black holes.
In that case, if you take a mini black hole inside the atmosphere,
our atmosphere, what you have is a sort of potential well and
the gas falls into the potential well. It gets very hot and remains
there. If the mini black hole has angular momentum, it can make
also the shape of a disc, for instance, because it is rapidly
rotating. Mini black holes have been predicted by theoreticians
and they could be a component of the cosmic rays. This is one
way. Another way, I don't know frankly what can it be if not a
gravitational singularity which suddenly occurs in our atmosphere.
Of course, the theory of wormholes has been settled theoretically.
But we are scientists, not engineers, and we have to imagine what
can it be.
YOUR PAPER AND DOCUMENTATION FOR THE PAST 2 YEARS IS VERY IMPRESSIVE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS GOING TO TAKE TO GET OTHER ASTROPHYSICISTS
AROUND THE WORLD TO PAY ATTENTION TO NOT ONLY YOUR WORK, BUT THE
FACT THERE IS INCREASING EVIDENCE IN ALL DIRECTIONS THAT THERE
IS SOME KIND OF A PLASMA SPHERE WITH ALL OF THESE CHARACTERISTICS
ON THIS PLANET AND SCIENCE SHOULD TRY TO INVESTIGATE MORE?
you are right. In fact, the scope and goal of this work with my
colleagues was to trigger, to provoke my colleagues in order to
give funds and to involve many other scientists."